first like two to three years we an
unbelievable roller coaster of events
and funding and flying around the world
let my school down I’ve let my mom down
I’ve let like my friends down not that
they cared but just that overwhelming
sense of like i’ messed up into my it at
the time didn’t feel great do you feel
you’re a failure
now
uh oh
God welcome to altitude X The Business
Leaders podcast where we explore the
untold stories of extraordinary Business
Leaders I’m Holly and I’m joined today
by Tom Rivers Tom now brand director at
speech matics is a master Storyteller
connecting customers with Brands but his
career journey is anything but linear a
decade ago he founded a startup that
shared an incubator with billion dooll
companies like uipath and Tide 10 years
on the fast-paced and Ever Changing
world of startups and scale-ups has
helped him hone the scale of building
rapport with anyone while still getting
things done welcome hi Hol so nice to
have you here it’s great to be here so
what do you think people’s first
impression will be when they hear that
you’re speaking on a podcast about
failure yeah I mean I’d like to say I
hope people would be surprised um but
probably not probably not aside from the
fact that people maybe don’t talk about
it that much what made you want to talk
about this in
particular I think that I have learned I
it’s a bit of aich I have learned far
more from my failures than any modim of
successes or things going swimmingly I
think a lot of the time when people talk
about failure it it seems to always be
almost of the place of somebody writing
their autobiography or their Memoirs
right they they’ve been through it
they’re 60 70 years old um they’ve
achieved amazing things and they write
about it in retrospect and I I think
what that means is when you hear about
those failures you you can kind of well
it’s all right for you to say like you
got through them and like you’re way
past that and you’ve gone on to have
enormous successes I think it’s in some
ways much harder and more interesting to
talk about it almost like during that
Journey rather than at the
end so you still think you’re draing the
journey I’m not retiring anytime soon no
autobiography what yeah not yet well
yeah uh I don’t know if you knew this
but Alan titchmarsh has I think four
Memoirs really not content with one
so maybe I’ll just write four Memoirs
one now one in 10 years and just keep
going um but I mean we could just change
the whole podcast and talk about Alan
ditch much if you like mind-blowing
man so what so we’re talking about
failure what was your earliest memory I
know you say You’re Still Still mid
Journey but what was your earliest
memory of failure yeah um school so I
went to academically a good school
I was lucky fortunate enough to go there
on like a scholarship and they like lots
of academically good schools kind of
pick out students that they think are
really good and push them really really
hard uh specifically to apply for
Oxbridge um and I remember the
experience of going to interview at
Oxford and it going so badly um just
catastrophically badly uh I had two
interviews at two different colleges the
second one I remember them basically
being like look you’ve got 20 minutes to
get there it’s a half an hour walk you
better get going running there super
flustered and just joking the the whole
time I was there I was choked and I
didn’t get in and I remember sort of
seeing the look in people’s eyes where
they won’t say it yeah but you can see
in they their eyes that they’re
disappointed in you um that was a very
maybe not earliest but a very early
vivid memory of feeling like I don’t
understand what this feels like like I
let my school down I’ve let my mom down
I’ve let like my friends down not that
they cared but just that overwhelming
sense of like I’d messed up in some way
people say things like oh everything
happens for a reason you’re moving on to
bigger and better things what if someone
had said that to you maybe they did at
that time yeah they did lots of people
um yeah I understand the sentiment
behind it right um um again I always
used to have this thing where it was
like everybody that says everything
happens for a reason or every uh failure
or perceived failure has led me to who I
am today my response to that is well you
seem pretty chuff with who you are today
I feel like I could be much better like
if those failures hadn’t happened I
would be like a greater smarter higher
achieving version of the person sat
opposite you and I want that um so it
wasn’t that
reassuring um at the time and yeah lots
of people did say everything happens for
a reason I almost just sort of sted my
foot and I was like yeah but I don’t
want it yeah I want that thing that’s
why I went for it and I tried really
hard for it so it at the time didn’t
feel great I then had a second failure
after that I was lucky enough to get a
full scholarship to London School of
Economics which now is above Oxbridge in
the rankings um dropped out failed again
to complete uni had a couple of years
out um that was the first time where I I
kind of reassessed you know my
priorities in terms of going to like an
academically highflying uni and instead
I was just like I want to have the best
time ever and I came to Manchester
instead and yeah relatively shortly
afterwards ended up yeah doing that
manad thing of starting a proper proper
startup so like Tech MH investor money
Silicon Valley well wasn’t based in
Silicon Valley but that’s style of
startup and I was I guess yeah 25 and
how long did that last for so that was
seven years yeah I would say that it was
it was a a tale of two halves though um
the first like two to three years were
an unbelievable roller coaster of events
and funding and flying around the world
and doing all of this exciting High paac
action-packed startup stuff including
being on a incubator in lond called C
Camp which is like one of the world’s
best and then it just sort of pet off
and a lot of that kind of went away
something that must have been very very
difficult how much would you say it has
defined the rest of your life yeah a
huge amount I think the success of the
business becomes utterly entwined with
your selfworth yeah your business is you
right you’re obsessed with it when it’s
failing it feels as if you personally
are failing like you are not good enough
right but I think it it taught me a huge
amount of valuable lessons
about oh God uh when to quit um stuff
beyond your control external factors
yeah so there was definitely this you
know low of feeling absolutely terrible
about everything that I touched
professionally um but I think over time
you know when you get a bit of distance
and you step away from stuff that’s
often only when you can kind of view it
clearly Well that took a very very long
time cuz I I always think about people’s
uh beliefs in what they say there’s like
certain stuff that people saying I think
they they hold it in their brain right
um so for example if you tell people oh
don’t worry what anyone else thinks of
you you’ll go yeah yeah I know right but
I think that’s your brain saying that
feeling so truly believing something I
think takes a lot longer to sink in y
like you can see people that don’t care
other people think and then you can see
people that would agree with you
verbally yeah but don’t actually truly
believe it like in their bones yeah that
is so interesting did at the time I’m
imagining the answer is yes but did you
feel like you were a failure utterly so
connected to what you to to your sense
of self do you feel you’re a failure
now
uh so it might be worth talking about
like what failure means right tell me
tell me what get definition let’s get
into the good stuff
um I think a lot of the time it’s just
when you don’t meet your own or other
people’s expectations that’s it you just
fall short of that yeah um it can be
your own I want to run a marathon in
four hours I run it in four and a half
Bo I still run a marathon right MH those
are your own expectations yeah other
people in the world who have never
considered running running a marathon be
like you’re incredible you got around
the distance never run a marathon very
impressed um so that’s like the internal
ones but then I I think you feel what
other people’s expectations are as well
and you internalize those um and
sometimes you feel as if you are not
living up to other people’s expectations
again even if they say otherwise um you
might be like no I know you don’t
believe that your expectations to me
were much higher so have I not hit my
own expectations or what I perceive
other people’s expectations like again
and again absolutely yeah time and time
and again um do I now consider myself a
failure no I don’t think
so there’s a such a big difference there
that between meeting your own and
meeting other people’s expectations do
you think it’s fair to hold yourself to
someone else’s idea of what is great
surely that’s not fair yeah I guess not
I sometimes people are just driven by
different things right uh some people
very very driven by other people’s
expectations and sometimes that works
out fine right so Man City Football Club
right now I think most of the players
are probably driven by the expectations
and drive of Pep right they do all right
um and if they’re just doing it for him
they’re still achieving stuff on paper
um I think I am much more driven by my
own expectations of myself and I try and
set the bar for those as high as
possible yeah um but again it’s always a
bit of a mix of both right ask anyone if
they don’t carry around some sort of
baggage of their family’s expectations
of them if they say no I think they’re
lying right um it’s very rare to meet
people that are utterly able to
disconnect from other people’s
expectations of them and sometimes those
expectations aren’t terrible right
people expect you to be polite nice kind
you know that that isn’t a bad
expectation to like internalize and kind
of help guide your behavior but yeah um
my internal standards and my
expectations and therefore my standards
for failure are I think my own I feel a
very strong driving force and yeah I’m I
tend to be in any work environment but
even any personal one I’m always the one
that beats myself up the most out of
anybody else so you hold yourself to
higher standards then do you hold them
do you do you hold yourself to higher
standards than you hold other people to
yeah massively right but that that’s
similar to that whole thing of like like
your the way that you talk to yourself
is often harsher right than you would
talk to a friend like if a friend is
struggling at work you are so lovely
right uh everyone is just like look it’s
fine you’ll get through this don’t worry
take that whatever time you need talk
your internal analog it’s like you know
pull yourself together what are you
doing you’re an idiot this isn’t even
that bad like it’s a very similar thing
it’s so hard to make that inner voice
inside you positive and not blame
yourself cuz blame is hard blame is hard
to get your to wrap your head around
even now as a leader do you find
yourself kind of split between okay if
something goes right it’s praise if
something goes wrong it’s blame how does
how is that different as a leader if
every single decision made that didn’t
lead to huge success you took very very
personally I just don’t think you’d be
able to get up and go out the door and I
was thinking about this today like
leading up to this I was like I’ve seen
yet another funny meme clip of uh LZ
truss um so she’s at the Conservative
Party Conference and she’s walking down
the corridor and a Sky News reporter’s
got a mic in her face and he’s like Liz
like how can you even show your face
here after the terrible like period in
charge and aren’t you embarrassed how
can you be giving the advice to like
these you know new conservatives and she
is just this utterly Frozen smile and
she’s sort of walking along and trying
to ignore him but it goes on for like a
painfully long period of time where
she’s just like happily walking along
smiling and I watched that and I was
kind of like I get it I get it because
if Lin trust truly believed and took
responsibility for everything that
everyone says she did wrong yeah she’d
died right like if she woke up every
morning and was just like screaming like
oh God what did I do I’m like the worst
prime minister in the history of the
country she would never go outside no so
I think she you can see it happening
where she’s constructing all like
whatever it takes all of these defense
mechanisms to not feel that right and I
kind of respect that she can like like
she could turn up to the Conservative
Party Conference and want to do a speech
about the future of the conservative
party because she’s been able to like
build those defenses and walls that
means that to an extent she doesn’t have
to confront that awfulness and I think
lot people just do this in their daily
lives right it’s like if if you truly
accepted all of your failures like head
on you just wouldn’t wouldn’t get out of
bed ever um so I kind of get it surely
there are drawbacks though of that
surely that has some implication on when
you get home and the the barriers come
down or or scream yeah you just scream
into your pillow or you know sometimes
you can say something so many times you
can start to believe it oh yeah is that
the case yeah I they definitely do that
whole you know talking to theel in theor
just being like you’re amazing um I I
don’t know what the consequences are
because there’s probably consequences if
you let your guard down at some point
like come home and scream into your
pillow and drink four bottles of wine
every night I think some people just
never let it in they just carry on like
completely unencumbered by you know
guilt or remorse or like having to
confront these things and some of them
do great I think Donald Trump seems to
be doing all right I think if you asked
him if he’s ever failed he’d tell you to
get out right this like just utterly
unshakable sense of like keep going
doesn’t matter haven’t made mistakes on
to the next one um and I think that can
go either one way like I’m quoting
people that are relatively successful I
reckon if you bumped into somebody who
utterly refused to accept failure and
responsibility that hadn’t had an
incredible career you would just think
they were nuts right you’d be like life
is a and they’re like no like like you
literally you know you’re living in a
carbo box in a in a ramshackle place
like you should sort yourself out and
like no no it’s
fine altitude X The Business Leaders
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peak. so how much of your failure do you
think was your own fault and how much
you blame yourself versus external
factors or you know things other people
have done or things out of your control
I that’s a a tough one I still don’t
really know I it’s a big old mix of
everything I think because it’s one of
those things where I can’t remember who
said it but it’s almost possible to make
every correct decision and still lose
yeah right um true yeah like every time
your face with should we do this or this
should I sell to them or them or you can
make all of those choices correctly and
it still just not work out for whatever
reason uh timing Market all this other
stuff nevertheless you are the person
who was making those choices and you
probably think in your head like oh okay
maybe if I didn’t make all of those tiny
choices right but instead made a big
scary decision to move in a completely
different direction earlier would we
have succeeded and the answer is like I
don’t I don’t think it you can know
right these counterfactuals can be like
super dangerous um I think it’s one of
those things where it I take definitely
huge amount of responsibility for it um
but also I think the difference is it
was very human fallible and okay to make
those mistakes if that makes sense yeah
okay yeah I still to some extent or to a
large extent see it as a personal
failing but that’s no big deal because
failure is inevitable and fine yeah so
when you were going through this you we
mentioned before actually kind of this
sense of self really tied to what you’re
doing you know it’s your everything what
happens to the other parts of your sense
of self like home Tom what happened to
home Tom when work Tom was
failing it’s like any sort of spiral
that happens right it’s a it’s a weird
thing that I think think me along with a
lot of other people aren’t sometimes
can’t be good at compartmentalizing
stuff right so you’re like well I’m my
work’s faing I’m rubbish at it I’m also
going to be rubbish at all of my hobbies
right um obviously the two are separate
yeah and I think over time you by
distancing yourself and your work you
realize that oh actually I can so I’ve
played football every single Monday for
about 10 years with the same group of
people who only connection is a WhatsApp
group right they don’t no one knows each
other from school or uni or work they’ve
just gradually come together and they
play monay Night Football I cannot
describe how much joy it brings me it is
that so they’re all between the ages of
like 30 and 48 and we just turn up every
Monday night and play an hour of
football and that was such a the reason
why I mention it is they we don’t even
talk about work no one talk talks about
work people barely talk about home life
they just come together and play
football every week yeah and that was
such a nice like to some extent humbling
right because you know when I was doing
well and playing that like Monday Night
Football nobody asked nobody cared right
they didn’t read the you know Tech
granch or whatever article that had been
in um and I knew they didn’t care either
right they wouldn’t ask me even if they
read it it was just like were there to
play football I think that’s such a nice
like grounding experience I know some
people talk about the same experience of
having dogs or kids it’s like being
around people or a person or a thing or
an animal that just doesn’t care what
you do for work yeah is so liberating
because I think you’re immediately like
yeah you know what this is just great
nice that’s good keeping yourself
resilient and the difference your sense
of self strong that’s hard how what
would you define as resilience actuallyy
before I ask you anymore yeah uh going
from one failure to the next without any
loss of enthusiasm right I think that
was a Edison or Winston Churchill um I
think there is something to that it’s
it’s the ability to no matter how many
times you get not backed just picking
yourself up and going again I but
there’s different types of resilience
right and there’s that sort of cyclical
failure go again or like knock back go
again there’s also a resilience which I
think I don’t have as much as my friends
do which is just to Eno misery right in
the moment to not give up yeah right
rather than give up pick yourself up and
go again which I think is a nice type of
resilience and a good example of it some
people just have an ability to just
endure and to never give up right and
just go and go and go so like you know
forget marathons like ultra marathon
runners or you know somebody that’s
having an awful time at work but just
never quits yeah they just hold on right
somehow that’s a type of resilience and
I less of that um I have less of that
but I that’s also kind of remarkable in
a Twisted way I’m not sure if it’s
healthy necessarily but some people are
particularly good at that so yeah maybe
two definitions here I like those
definitions I think that maybe
resilience is overall resilience is some
blend of the two but I think when you
first move into a leadership role or you
first become a leader your resilience
might not be as strong and you suddenly
are faced with this flame versus praise
and how does that all work and that can
be quite tough how did you find do you
remember moving into your first
leadership role how did you find it I
think I was like a teenager experiencing
first love it was like all everything
just felt world ending both good and bad
yeah all the all the lows yeah and you
were like I will never feel this amazing
ever or I will never feel this bad ever
and then like three days goes by and
you’re like oh my God this is the bottom
or this is the top and you just
oscillate between those two things for
about a year
and only then you’re like okay I guess
like res maybe mixing up sort of
resilience and wisdom didn’t have any
wisdom I maybe had the resilience of
just plowing on and doing crazy hours
and doing whatever it took but I didn’t
have any sort of or not nearly enough
distance to be like you know this is
fine uh this two Shall Pass there was
none of that it was just like it was all
the highest highs and the lowest lows
for like the first year which makes
sense if your sense of self is wrapped
up in it then feel all those things so
strong how do you think you could have
looking back protected your sense of
self a bit
more God that is such a tricky question
it’s it’s a bit like advising teenagers
you know if you could go back and advise
yourself before you had that terrible
idea of a relationship on what to do you
know that the teenage version of you
wouldn’t listen anyway or even if they
did they wouldn’t be able to help
themselves yeah I’m not sure right could
give any advice that would sink in or
would make a difference it’s going to
happen guaranteed so I guess maybe
surround yourself with wise people or
have a good set of friends and family
that honestly don’t care about what you
do for work always helpful um you know
nothing more humbling than your family
just absolutely tearing you to shreds
for your sweater choice at Christmas
right uh instead of like oh how were the
results last month right um
maybe that but I I still don’t think it
would help if wisdom comes if
surrounding yourself with people who are
wise is a helpful thing but wisdom comes
from doing things many times before
surely wisdom therefore unless you’re
succeeding in everything you do which as
humans we’re not naturally likely to do
like surely wisdom comes from lots of
failure yeah of course um absolutely
well failures um but just highs and lows
pigs and troughs um weathering storms
yeah you know um ask any old enough
person about politics in the UK or the
US they’re usually like me you’re like
no this could literally be the end of
the world and they’re like yeah let’s
see so do you think failing has made you
less ambitious yes um I
think so my key to happiness I guess is
um lowering your expectations completely
across everything friends family work um
and with that Ambitions um to an extent
and focusing more on the day-to-day the
process the team and the work you’re
doing in the moment I think it sounds
really negative but what it means is if
anything great happens it is a wonderful
surprise and not just like an expected
outcome oh oh I had my ambitions to you
know uh fly to the moon
didn’t cool right um because your
expectations were so high anything less
than landing on the moon is probably
going to be a disappointment whereas if
you lower them in your ambition uh and
your Ambitions too Everything feels
great and lucky and fortunate and a
wonderful
surprise but I still think there’s scope
within that kind of thinking to just try
and be as good as possible in every
moment in everything that you do but not
fixate on the ambition and the outcome
it’s just be like I love doing this I
want to be as good as possible and I
want to get better every single day and
then see where that ends up and it may
turn out that like despite not having
his Grand Ambitions that you actually
get further um so yeah when you look
back do you have any
regrets uh oh see that that’s another
really interesting one right because
it’s it’s like that fork in the road
thing some people no regrets it was
meant to be right regrets CU you
wouldn’t be sat here right now and if
you regret anything you’re saying that
you’re not happy with where you are
right now and part of me sometimes is
like yeah yeah I I could have an island
somewhere right uh do I have regrets
well I don’t have the island or the
super yacht um so kind of um not really
I think one of the important things
about maybe is like I don’t have regrets
because I feel proud of how I conducted
myself the whole time time yeah right so
I didn’t like you know some my soul to
the devil or throw anyone under the bus
or do anything horrible I hope maybe I
did um no ethical failures yeah exactly
it’s easier to not have regrets I think
if you try and have that like strong
sense of ethics and then the sort of
practical matters play out how they will
um I think the the biggest regrets in
life often come from like deep moral
ethical failings and they sting a lot
more
yeah and my last question okay what is
the Legacy that you’d like to leave
behind personally and professionally
Legacy God that’s such a big word um
nothing spectacular or grand uh I don’t
think I’m going to get people into space
or have books written about me or
anything like that and I think that’s
okay you um I think a nice Legacy would
just be that on the whole people just
had a fantastic time I think one of the
things I’ve always wanted to achieve
maybe for one person that works in the
same company or team for me would be to
look back at the time we worked together
and say that was the best professional
experience I had like either the work we
were doing or the way that we work
together or the dynamic as a team they
are like that was the Golden Era and
that was for whatever reason I had an
amazing time there and if I could be
part of that memory in some people’s
mind that would be amazing that would be
so lovely even if it was something small
or
insignificant I think having that like
beautiful moment where the stars aligned
and everyone just seemed to like be
absolutely flying and to be there and be
a part of that that would be great I
love it sounds very
wonderful well thank you very much for
chatting to me today it’s been so great
to talk to you and it’s been great to
cover Fair failure because as you say
sometimes we don’t talk about failure
enough it’s really important we all go
through it and so hopefully uh you’ve
enjoyed it too loved it thanks so much
hly thanks to find out more about Peak
and how you can get gamechanging AI
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